Podcast Interview with Charis Santillie, Life Balance & Transition Coach, Charis Your Life

October 23, 2023 Steve Denny
Podcast Interview with Charis Santillie, Life Balance & Transition Coach, Charis Your Life
Show Notes Transcript

This episode is with special guest Charis Santillie, Life Balance & Transition Coach, and host of the Charis Your Life® podcast.

Charis Santillie is a Life Balance & Transition Coach and host of the Charis Your Life® podcast.  She is also a speaker, Certified Fearless Living® Coach, Certified Fearless Trainer, and Positive Intelligence® Trainer and has been an entrepreneur for over twenty years.  She now helps entrepreneurs go from Busy to Balanced™...and Beyond.

Specifically, she supports entrepreneurs at two different stages of their lives:

1.  In the busy mid-life stage, when they are ready to ditch life's guilt and anxiety and finally find more peace of mind (In other words, they're realizing that their external accomplishments haven't brought lasting
inner satisfaction.)

2.  In the exit transition stage, when they need to design their life after business so that they don't lose their way after exit day. (This involves guiding them through the emotional journey that is often overlooked in exit planning.)

You can contact Charis at:

Phone:  844-444-1975
Charis Your Life® Podcast:

Free Video Training 'How to Live Life on Your Own Terms & Timeline (Ditch Life's Guilt & Anxiety — Finally Find More Peace of Mind)'


If you would like to be a guest on the You Don’t Know What You Don’t Know™ Podcast, or know someone who would make a great guest, let us know at:

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About Steven Denny: Steven Denny co-founded Innovative Business Advisors in 2018 and serves as a Managing Member of the firm. Steve has been actively engaged in M/A activities in a wide variety of industries for the last 14 years and has developed specific products to assist clients in growing their profitability and enterprise value. His specialty is working with established private companies in the lower middle market with annual revenues from $1 – 50 million.

Welcome to the You Don't Know What You Don't Know podcast by Innovative Business Advisors. Successful business owners who have started, grown and led businesses share their journey and direction for the benefit of those traveling the same path.

Today we're talking with Charis Santillie, who's a visionary business owner providing life balance and transition coach services for individuals and business owners. She's also the host of the Charis Your Life podcast where you can, which you can find on all major streaming services. Along with being a business owner, Charis is also a speaker, a Certified Fearless Living Coach, Certified Fearless Trainer, and a Positive Intelligence Trainer. And one of her true superpowers is that she helps entrepreneurs go from busy to balanced and beyond. So specifically, she supports entrepreneurs at two different stages of their life. First in the busy midlife stage, when they're ready to ditch life's guilt and anxiety and finally find more peace of mind. And in the secondly, in the, in the stage that initially connected Charis and I and that's a, it's a transition stage when owners need to really design their life after business so that they don't lose their way. So Charis welcome. I've really been looking forward to this conversation.

Me too, Steve, it's been wonderful, the conversations we've had leading up to this, and I'm excited to, to share now and to expand to help your audience.

Yeah, it's really been very insightful for me too. You, you bring a very unique insight that I'm very excited to share with, with many people in our network as well. So let's begin by having you tell us a little bit about the catalyst that led to your decision to get into business.

Yeah, so my, this is literally going to be a brief backstory, but I promise it will be very interesting for people, there's some, some, some exciting moments for sure. So my intro into entrepreneurship was as a child because my parents built a business out of our kitchen, that it started there. And it ultimately grew to 30 to 40 employees. And, you know, they won Business Owner of the Year for Washington State and got to meet the president. I mean, all of this happened in my like junior high to high school years. It was a very exciting time. And, of course, as you can imagine, I modeled after them because I saw the hard work, the effort, the nights and weekends and everything that they did to create this success and truly go after and live the American dream. So I went after all the accolades I could in school and activities and everything that I did, and was a real go getter and high achiever from the you know, get go, especially watching them. And when I came home to, from college after my first year. It was the summer I was turning 19. And we were celebrating my dad's 50th birthday. And we went for a hot air balloon ride. And I grew up in southeastern Washington State, very hot area, very hot day, we almost didn't go up but we did. It was a beautiful yet hot ride. And then something happened and went terribly wrong when we came in to land. And basically what happened was the basket bounced, you can't really control or pilot or drive these things. It hit the ground hard, we went got lifted back up in the air, came down again for another landing attempt and my dad ended up rolling out of the basket. And his foot got caught on a cord. He was drug about the length of a football field through corn and alfalfa fields. And at some point too was also literally hanging upside down by his foot. And I saw that looking over the basket edge. And it was, as you can imagine, extremely traumatic and terrifying. And I was screaming and completely went hysterical. I don't remember our final landing. I just remember running over to him. And he was facedown and not moving. But when we were able to get him turned over he looked at how upset I was as his little girl and looked at me and said "you should see the other guy." So he was able to crack a joke and try to make light and try to to make sure I was okay. He ended up with a broken neck and was paralyzed. So my dad was physically paralyzed and as you can imagine, this completely flipped our world upside down and and had huge ramifications. My mom and I became emotionally paralyzed. And her coping mechanism was alcohol and that eventually took its toll, and over a few decades, destroyed her liver and and she moved on out of this world about, it'll be 10 years ago this coming Thanksgiving, actually. My coping mechanism was busyness and a bit of workaholic behaviors, for sure, for a few decades. And I mean, even just the night of the accident I found that just getting busy and taking care of things just felt good and seemed safe. And so then that became very much hardwired into how I would cope with things moving forward. And ultimately, well, I already had the entrepreneurial drive in me, I already had that high achiever ambition, so this just amped things up, and became after a while to an unhealthy degree until body and mind caught it. You know, my mental and physical health, things would started sparking up for me and calling my attention and having me realize that I needed to make some changes. And it was about that time I met a coach, and there's a whole nother story there. But then if we just fast forward, ultimately, that accident was the catalyst that changed my life. And then another tipping point, moments later, when I learned of coaching, and then ultimately, after a handful of years of being coached, and learning what that meant, then I decided to become a coach myself and help people.

Yeah, and it, as you mentioned, it had, I mean, it just shattered your world. I mean, you guys had this idyllic lifestyle. Your mom had created this incredible business, which she and your your dad ran and, you know, you were kind of circling in its wake, if you will, and then all of a sudden, this accident just just shatters the shatters the whole life for all you guys, eventually, you know, leading to your your mom's early, early death, right.

Yeah, she was only 64.

Astounding, absolutely astounding. And you told me you found a real key insight after you were reflecting on your mom's experience in that regard. So, yeah, share with us a little bit about that.

So, what, part of the story I didn't mention is my parents literally lost everything in the sense of, you know, lost their house, lost their business, over a period of time, but I mean, you know, handful of years really. And what I saw is, and of course, they they'd lost the life as they'd known it, because my dad lost his ability to walk and to really do much movement and even have useful, with, useful experience with his hands, you know, they because it was a neck injury. Not severed spinal cord, but severely bruised, so he's technically a quadriplegic. Wow. And I, my, so all sorts of losses that I can tell you, and then there's kind of a piece of the story that all the details I won't go into, because it'll take too long. But they, at some point they even got the business back in a sense years later. And also during a sober period my mom had, a handful of years when she had finally had enough herself and quit and was clean for a while. And then some series of events happened, and another bankruptcy happened and it really was a final straw for her. And I had seen her go through that loss now twice. And of the business and it was, it was really, I think people talk about this, but I really saw it. It was her baby. The business was her baby, it was literally like a sibling. I mean, in a sense, I grew up with it and it was for her like losing a baby. And it was also it was her passion. It was very much connected with purpose and and it was very much connected with her identity. And it was devastating to lose it not once but even the fact that she lost it twice. And ultimately that was the final straw that you know, she was drinking again and then she knew that that would probably be the end because of everything the doctors had told her and it was. The liver just couldn't handle it anymore. So I saw firsthand how attached people can become with their business and how emotionally attached they can. And and it's, and it's helped me to look back on that, reflect and then see now, as I'm helping business owners and in your world with this challenge of the exit and where how are they going to transition in this, this fantasy that I'm discovering that is out there. And then the reality that I saw from firsthand experience and that advisors, like yourself, have shared with me that you've seen, sadly, way too often. And even when people have an intended exit versus my my parents facing a couple times of a, not not, not their, their intention, you know, something happening, that felt more or less out of their control. So that really connected some dots for me to really have an understanding of what people are facing when that part of their life is gone. And it's not everyone, but it's a majority. Like my dad, he can kind of just pick up and move on with another business idea or another something. But it, it seems to be that the majority tend to be more like my mom.

So true. So true. Terry, Terry, my partner and I wrote about this, in our books, you know, You Don't Know What You Don't Know. We call it the Day One Plan. And we often tell business owners in our first meeting, if they don't have a plan for what they're going to do the day after they sell, they really need to go back and check that out. We didn't realize how, how strongly meaningful that was until we started having some discussions with others in our industry, which ultimately led us to having some discussions with you. And some of the stuff that you've faced in that regard is, you know, people, I've heard you say people are exiting their purpose, right? And as you said, they, they've got this fantasy life after the sale, but what's the real experience really like?

Yeah, and our society plays up the fantasy. And so, you know, we've got an interesting scenario, like, our society also encourages, our culture tends to encourage that hard work, that build the business and blood, sweat and tears and put in a zillion hours, and, you know, sacrifice and it's okay, and it'll be I'll be worth it. And then someday, you get to retire and then you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. And, like, there's this whole thing. And it hurts a lot of people and in the sense that the workaholic nature that a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners tend to have. And overdoing in the sense of putting so many, so many hours. And I'm not one to say hard work is not needed or is bad. But when it compromises your health or your time, you know, what you say are your personal values, when you're not living in alignment with those, something is off. And when we bury some things inside of us and don't let our-- like I did, don't let ourselves feel and experience certain emotions because it's easier to just keep working. And it's also can be fun. So, and oh, society gives us pats on the back for this. This isn't necessarily looked upon as a bad thing. So it's an, it's a, it's an applauded addiction at times. You know, we don't have to come out and face it as much as some other things. So we got that piece. Then you get to the end of the line and then you realize that the fantasy, that they was a fantasy. What you thought was an illusion. And it's like, Wait, Where'd it go? So what was all that worth? And then we see, you and I've seen too many times now that people drop off the cliff, emotional moment of realizing that it's not there. Because what I, and what you touched on, I've identified and I would say, I don't think I'm the first to ever see this, but people have confused and associated emotionally and their brain has connected their purpose, their passion and their business and their identity, all as the same thing. And so if the business leaves, it's taking all of that with them. It feels like it is, let me clarify, it feels like as they exited everything. So it's a matter of being aware of that early on, and figuring out how to separate those things early on. Ideally many years in advance, like middle aged ish that I'm in, which is one of my niches of working with people too. Because it's it's ideal to try to get a head start on this because all of life will be better. You know, if you can live in more alignment with your values and, and separate these things out sooner. And, and so that's what I'm working on with people because it's so easy to get them all entangled and then it's going to be a whole shock to your entire system and for many people really hard to adjust to and recover from.

Yeah, that's why, I haven't been through it, but I, when I saw your program Busy to Balanced, I was so intrigued by that because, you know, you speak complete truth. And we see that all the time. And we tell business owners you know, when you're, when you're a successful business owner, everybody wants to be around you. I mean, every aspect of your life your you know, your church is reaching out to you, your your networks' reaching out to you inviting you to go places, and of course, your your business is reliant on you as well. And then, you know, the day after you close, all of a sudden your phone quits ringing. You know, your text messages don't light up, all your notifications start dimming away. Nobody calls you anymore to speak at any big dinners or write any big checks, and you find yourself by yourself. That's not a place where many of them are most of the time.

And then they're not prepared there. So many people are not saying the truth like you are. And I appreciate that you're bringing this to light for more people, because this is the truth, this is the reality. And to expect some to to think that it's just going to, you're just going to be okay, from going, you know, 100 miles an hour to practically zero. It's one thing to do it for vacation for a few weeks or a handful of months. But to then have that carry on for many months. So I'm thinking of a particular client who came to me eight months after the sale, and this, for him leaving the business, exiting was like, he was ready. Like he was really, it was, he was feeling burnt out, he was itching to move on. So that seems like okay, cool, great. Then he gets what he wants. Well, the reality is then, just like you said, he, in his words, felt like a nobody once you know, the handful of months went by. Lack of purpose, lack of energy, lack of motivation, doing seemingly simple things felt really awkward and frustrating and irritating, because he didn't have anybody to do them for him anymore. Because you just, tasks that need to get done. Like he could have used to be able to delegate certain types of things right to an assistant or somebody. And there's still possibilities getting personal assistance. So I mean, those are, you know, there's like workarounds for some of these things. But at the end of the day, he really was feeling lost. And that was another word, lost and depressed. And I mean, these are all words out of his mouth. So it's been, you know, going to some basics and what's especially challenging in that scenario is there's been months of his brain and his nervous system in this zone. And so to, that's now become the new way of being and thinking and feeling. So it's now become the, the comfortable place to be. Not comfortable like he's happy there. I don't mean that kind of comfort. But when people say your comfort zone, it's literally like your brain and your whole system gets used to something. And there's a whole part of you that's literally trying to keep you safe and and basically says, This way you're living right now is working for you. You're still alive. So yay, let's stay there. And so that's why it's hard for us to you know, make some changes in our lives at different times. And that's also why it's really hard to go from business owner to non business owner. It's just such a jarring to the system, your whole body after a little while is going to be like Wait, what just happened to me?

Yeah, so true. And, you know, the ultimate irony is now they have the time and typically the money to do all the things they dreamed of. But they find that, you know, that bucket list is relatively short lived. And they haven't given much thought, you know, beyond that, and, and, frankly, haven't given any thought into the fact that really it is their purpose that's gone. That they exited their purpose, and they never put any real thought into what will be the next chapter of my life in that regard.

Yeah, and who am I if I'm not this business owner? Right. Yeah. Because we are all so much more than these labels that we give ourselves but we encourage the labels and we support the labels and then we live by the labels. So to move beyond and get underneath the labels it, it takes some effort, and some introspection, and it takes some practice. And that's when, that's why having a coach, somebody like me or somebody else, can be such a support. In some cases therapy is super helpful. And I'm a big advocate for therapy too. I actually have done both and both at the same time and in certain times in my life as well, because they're, they're different. But in general, doing this kind of inner work will just like building your business, to, uh, you know, in scaling it up, pretty hard to do a one man show. So you need help, same here. This inner work is hard to be just solo doing it on your own as well. So getting some support. In this case, someone to guide you through the process, of your own self discovery. And it's all about finding what's going to light that person up and what's going to make them-- what is, who can they be that they're going to feel proud of, and feel worthy of having an enjoyable life without this business.

Yeah, and I'm smiling because I love, I love what you recommend, you strongly recommend that they take on a new CEO role. So tell us about that.

Yeah, a few weeks ago, I thought of that over the weekend. I mean, I don't know if I'm the first to ever say this phrase. I didn't Google it or anything. But I was like, I need to be a new CEO, a new role, a Chief Emotional Officer of their own lives. Because like when I mentioned my story early on too, my mom and I emotionally paralyzed as I look back now with more wisdom and understanding. And so many people become emotionally paralyzed through their lives. And like I said, many business owners, many entrepreneurs, part of the reason we're so buried in the business is sometimes because it's easier to bury the other stuff. And I mean, like, not feel our feelings. Not feel all of them. Pick and choose what we want to feel. And it gives us a great excuse to ignore some feelings, stuff them down, set them aside, say someday I'll deal with that if needed, or just, I'll just bypass that one. But I can tell you, that'll come back and bite you in the butt big time. And so it's better to face those things head on. It's better to realize that you need to do some of that inner work and do it-- The ideal scenario is you do it proactively before you really feel like you need it. Before you're in a, kind of a disaster zone, have some kind of bigger little trauma in your life or before you've got the shock about the fantasy not being real, or the what you thought was going to be real, is now fantasy. And so learning how to have more emotions. So for instance, when I, more emotional control over your life, and I don't mean, I mean like learning how to feel the feelings, not have them overtake you, not jump on a train and go for a ride with them and have them dictate all of your-- have you react to everything and be like, I don't mean that. But let them move through you. How do you do that? How do you know when you need to compartmentalize but then revisit it later? Like you're in a meeting and you're feeling frustrated or whatever. How do you deal with that? All of these things that we often just like shove stuff aside, but it doesn't just go away, it really gets buried. And that's what comes up to bite people later. In the Busy to Balanced and in the stage where people are in an earlier stage of their business career and life, what I refer to as life balance when they're realizing something's a little off is for me, balance is not really about managing your time. It's more about managing how you feel. So that ties in with the CEO Chief Emotional Officer concept. And boy, you can, all it is is learning new skills and new tools. It's all possible. And I can tell you, life changing. I mean, the person I was 10 years ago compared to the person I am now-- the person I was even a year ago to be honest, it's become kind of exponential growth. My husband even comments and thanks me for being such a great communicator now. I don't always hold it together. I'm not even going to pretend. I'm still doing all of this work myself and yet, it takes, it takes, things that used to upset me or irritate me or make me anxious or this, the list has dwindled.

Well, you know, most business owners are the, they're the master of the art of the possible, right? They're the ones that, contrary to everybody's advice and counsel, go out and conquer, they go out and do it. So, I love this, I think it's such an elegant solution in terms of giving them this new CEO role and inviting them to truly become, you know, the, the art of the possible again. Take, take these things that have overwhelmed them and, you know, get control of them. And, and take them to where they want to go. And now you've got, I know you've got a lot of some tips and techniques and you know, a whole process that you take folks through. Would you be willing to share an example of something that you might coach and train someone as one of your clients on on this new CEO role?

Yeah, so I, so you mentioned my my coaching foundations are in fearless living and positive intelligence. And I've woven them together in certain ways in certain things that I teach, either inside my program or one on one coaching. Or also through my podcast. So they, things will pop up here and there. And I'll share, what's coming to mind is I recently had a gentleman join my Busy to Balance program, who is also a business owner. And just last weekend, he was in getting going in the first module because it's, it's got some videos and an online course with some live monthly calls with me, but he was watching a video and then commenting below. And he shared about one of the exercises inside the program, which sometimes I share here and there too. So that's coming to mind because it was literally he said, This is great, I'm excited to try this out. It's super simple. And to work to rewire your brain, it does not have to be complicated. And that's what I love about everything that I've learned and that I help people with is and as my dad would always say, you know, Keep It Simple Santilli. I love that. --was a reminder to me. The true KISS method. Exactly, yeah, my family's KISS method method was pulling in our name. And because I would tend to try to complicate things at times throughout my younger years, and even well, and I still do occasionally but anyway. So simple here, this is from Positive Intelligence and Positive Intelligence Quotient becomes PQ, like IQ, EQ, PQ? Okay, so they refer to these as PQ Reps. So all it is, is you focus on one of your senses. Super, super, super, super focus on just one sense for at least 20 seconds. And it's, what it can do is it can get, in Positive Intelligence they talk about the saboteur, it's like we've got these inner saboteurs. Think about the voices in your head, this, or the thoughts or the things that, it's like our superpowers that get, but when they get triggered, they become our worst enemy. So the hyper achiever, the hyper vigilant, the restless, the people pleaser, some of these things. So to get those, and also we can think of this as the underlying fear that's controlling us too. To get that to quiet down, we need to like activate what we call the sage or in fearless living the freedom side of us. And basically, we're talking about the calmer, more grand-- grounded part of us. It's a lot in the right brain, bringing that online. So focus on one sense. So, for example, if you're watching the video, if you run, rub two fingers together, and if you were to close your eyes right now and do that, and you focus on the feeling of your finger tips rubbing against each other, such that you're trying to actually feel and identify your fingerprints, you know, the actual fingerprints on your skin, you get that focused for at least 20 seconds, if you can go a little longer then go longer. But that's an example of the sense of touch. And you could even do that while on a Zoom call. You could have that in your lap, you could keep your eyes open and you could just try to bring presence to yourself. There's other ways you can focus on sense of touch. You can rub one hand down the other really slowly. You can focus on you know, we're, just feeling like where your butt on your chair, different things. And every person is different on what appeals to them the most. I personally love sound a lot. So most of the time, except it's a little hotter day here so I just shut my door, but I have a door to the outside and I've got bird feeders outside my home office. So I will listen to the birds and just having that sound on or occasionally just focusing on it or really shutting my eyes and focusing on it. But that, I mean, that's actually even been sci-- all of these route back in science, for sure about the focus and the senses. And, and birds specifically too, there's a whole separate study just specifically about birds. Just a side note, doesn't have to be real live birds outside your door. If you're in a city or something, you can actually pull up a video and listen to them. Shut your eyes if you want to get like really honed in. Again, like 20 seconds. You can do this with sight. You can do this with taste and with smell. Have you ever watched somebody eat, who looks like they are eating something different than you? My grandfather was like that. Like we would just watch him and be like, you seem to have like a decadent meal, something is happening because he was so in the moment when he ate, the expression on his face. So that is what I think of when I think about savoring my food. Most the time we're just scarfing stuff down or eating while we're doing something. Anytime you can bring more presence and focus with any one of your senses for at least 20 seconds, there's literally been, like if you were to see a brain scan, you'd see that things change. Change for the better in the sense that it's going to ground you and center you and calm you. You're going to make better decisions. You're going to be more effective in your whole life. You're going to be a better communicator. All of these things. If you can do it for a couple minutes, awesome. 10 minutes. Fantastic. I mean, it's essentially the same concept of when you hear people meditate. It's essentially what they're doing. But this idea is bringing it into your day in little bite sized bits that are a little easier to digest and also can be super impactful. Because I'm sure many of us know people who say they meditate for an hour plus a day. And yet, if we see them in the middle of the day, you're like, I don't know if that's doing you any good.

Or might be time to go try a little bit more of that right now. I don't know.

I mean, for some people, it does great things. And then I can think of some people I know where it's not ha--, it doesn't seem to infiltrate their day. So this is one of the ways you can do it is to think about these PQ Reps, again, at least 20 seconds, focus on one sense. And there's more examples that I could give but that gives you a taste.

That's awesome. Very, very helpful. Well, Charis, this has been great. I know you've got a lot of tools that are available. And you've got a lot of and a wildly growing experience in this field. So, how can people reach out to you and where can they go to learn more information about the programs that you have available?

Well, so first of all, a little tip. Steve said it perfectly, but I know my name can be a tough one. So a way to remember it literally how to spell it and how to say it is it's like the city Paris but with a Ch. So that can help you out. And my website and my social media handles are Charis Your Life, or at Charis Your Life on all the social stuff. And my web--, my podcast has the same name as well, Charis Your Life. Personal development focused, things I talked about here with you today, I share a lot of personal stories and things that people enjoy that feel that are very relatable and I occasionally have some guests on. And my solo episodes are average 10 to 20 minutes, are fairly short, that's weekly. And then if you're interested in working with me and beyond, you know, checking me out in those arenas and following me, the, if you're in that stage we talked about of kind of, you're not really near the end of your business journey, but you're, you've got some awareness, you're a little intrigued about the idea of making your life be-- feeling more fulfilling right now and not being so buried in the busyness of your business, and making sure that you feel more balanced inside. And that may or may not mean making any changes in your external life. It literally may be connected with the CEO concept of the Chief Emotional Officer, which I can help you with. So I've got a program that you mentioned, Busy to Balanced. And then I also do one on one coaching, limited spots. But I do have that for that kind of end-- edge of the niche of where you are in your business journey in your life. And if you want to check out a little bit more of my coaching, get a little taste of it, and also learn what's inside that program Busy to Balanced is an online course that also has some monthly calls. You can go to forward slash video and there's a free training there, 30 minute video training, and you can get a taste of a couple more things, exercises from me, and then learn more about that course. And there's, right now I've got an exclusive offer inside that for you for joining that program. Now on the, you're looking toward the exiting side of life, business and your life after business, if you have some years to go, even even just a couple, or a year or something, anything, the more the better, we can start planning and seeing how you can make sure that you're, you're not shocked at the end of the road, even though you're like, Oh, I think it's gonna be great. If there's just a little bit of you that's been intrigued by our conversation today and is like, you know, Steve, I trust him, I know what he's talking about, he's apparently seen a lot of this go, a lot of instances where this has gone bad for people so maybe I want to give this some thought, well, then, and if I resonate with you, then you can reach out to me. You can send me a DM at on any social or they'll have my contact information below, I'm sure. And we can start working on a plan so that you can make sure that you really are ready and actually start making some life transitions sooner than just waiting until your exit. Because that's the ideal scenario is that you don't exit your business like on a specific day, but that you like, exit over a period of time, so that it's not going to be so shocking. And you can ease into everything. And you can start filling in some of the gaps in your life to make sure that it is a fulfilling life that you're moving into. And then if you've already sold, that's another option too, or you're right at the end of the line, you know, I can help you then too, just reach out.

Awesome. It, it, I heard you say it and I wrote it down. It is the missing piece of Exit Planning. And I think it's so valuable and so richly needed out there. I hope people will do that. And you're right on. The more time you give yourself upfront to do this, I think probably the more effective it will be. But Charis this has been awesome. Thank you so much for the generous gift of your time today to share this with, with me personally and with our group as a whole. And I just want to say God bless you and all the work you're doing in that regard, you're really making a difference out there. So go out and be well. And as always, we will have all of Charis's contact information down in the show notes. So if you're listening to this on any of the various channels, you'll be able to see that below and click on those and that'll take you directly to her. So thanks again, Charis, it was an honor to speak to you today.

Thank you Steve. Thank you for listening to the You Don't Know What You Don't Know podcast. We invite you to visit and sign up to receive updates on upcoming episodes. You can also let us know if you'd like to be a guest or recommend a business owner to be interviewed. Find us on LinkedIn, Facebook and YouTube where you can like, follow, share and join our efforts. Thanks for listening. We hope you join us again.